Monday, January 26, 2009

Do Only Stupid People Believe in God?

God as depicted in La Creazione (Creation) by Michelangelo

The full article: "Intelligent people 'less likely to believe in God"

" Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simple a metter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tent not to believe in God".
- Psychology Professor Richard Lynn to Times Higher Education.

Tell us what you think:






.

19 comments:

  1. I, too , have encountered a negative reaction toward religion at NMT. I will be happy to assist in whatever you guys will do in the future. By the way are you guys associated with any student organizations: IVCF, BSU? or are you independents?

    ReplyDelete
  2. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Religion is just some made up set of rules by old men who only wish to control and conform a large amount of ppl. This being said. Only those who are narrow minded and/or easily manipulated believe in such ludicrous as "god" or a higher power.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Why are you doing this poll? Why the random pieces of paper in our mailboxes without telling us why or any information about who wants to know what we think? I have a feeling that this will only become a huge flamewar...

    ReplyDelete
  6. There are less academics believing in God. But more and more there are less general population believing in God as well. I think the root of this is because God has always been thought of as a greater power, and that He existed before the world. Most religion's have their god pre-dating time. So with schools teaching evolution, from a young age we "know" that we did not come from any god, and therefore there is no reason to believe in one.

    Scientifically, evolution is the most grounded theory, so it makes sense to teach it. That doesn't make it correct, but the more you believe in it, the less you have a "need" to believe in an all powerful being.

    ReplyDelete
  7. By the way, the way you ask the question gives away your position and bias. You ask if "Only" "stupid" people believe in God. You also make the logical fallacies of confusing correlation with causality and a hasty generalization.

    ReplyDelete
  8. To evaluate the question “Do only stupid people believe in God?”, let us first define the difference between an “intelligent” person and a “stupid” person. The dictionary definition of intelligent (or the first two, rather) is

    1. Displaying or characterized by quickness of understanding, sound thought, or good judgment

    2. Having good understanding or a high mental capacity; quick to comprehend, as persons or animals: an intelligent student.

    The second definition here is particularly important. Note ‘good judgment.’ Bear with me on this one for a minute.

    The dictionary definition for ‘stupid’ is:

    1. Lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.

    Note the keyword ‘ordinary.’ Given that, in spite of what academics are doing, the majority of the population still subscribes to a religious denomination of one kind or another, it can hardly be said that the faithful are ‘stupid’, per se. And seeing as how religious people are at least as successful in terms of material wealth as the rest of the population, we can hardly say that they have poor judgment. And yet, the statistics don’t lie: It would seem that a large group of very smart people (National Academy of Sciences) are largely atheists. What is going on here?

    The critical feature that separates this group of people from everybody else, I would say, is not ‘intelligent’ thought, but rather ‘scientific’ thought. These individuals understand things by observing the world around them, gathering (physical) evidence, and drawing conclusions based upon that evidence. Unfortunately, there is no physical evidence that points directly to God’s existence, or that proves objectively that God created the universe and mankind in His image; God’s existence must be accepted on faith or not at all. By contrast, a great many theories that contradict biblical testament, such as the Big Bang theory and the theory of Evolution, whether technically correct or not, are based upon physical evidence that can be studied objectively.

    Back to the dictionary definition, an ‘intelligent’ person, as these men most likely are, is possessed of ‘good judgment.’ A person with good judgment is more likely to trust their judgment in all matters, whether corporeal or spiritual. So, unlike a lay person, with average judgment, who may not wish to risk leaving their religion for fear of incurring God’s wrath in the afterlife, an ‘intelligent’ person would trust their judgment more, and take the risk of atheism because they think they have no reason to fear such reprisal.

    It must also be noted that religious thought has been unfortunately associated with anti-intellectualism and even barbarism. A few notable examples include the imprisonment of Galileo for his support of the geocentric theory (actually, it was because he tried to interpret scripture on his own, but that's pretty bad too), the Crusades, where millions died for the purpose of ‘Recapturing the Holy Land’, the Spanish Inquisition, and the witch hunts of colonial America. People who are highly intelligent, and wish to be seen as rational and open-minded, may be more likely to want to distance themselves from an organization (or group of organizations) which have committed such acts in the name of a being who is not objectively known to exist.

    In conclusion, I think the statements “smart people are less likely to believe in God”, and “stupid people are more likely to believe in God” are fallaciously simplistic. Whether you believe in God or not has much more to do with how you think, and what you think about, rather than how good you are at thinking in general.

    ReplyDelete
  9. However, I will add that science and reason have done much more to improve the quality of life on Earth than any religion ever has in the history of the world. I don't think anyone is stupid for being religious, but if they think that religious modes of thinking are going to make the world a better place, that, my friends, is really, REALLY stupid.

    Case in point: The Middle East. It was a pretty nice place when it was the biggest center of knowledge and scientific thought in the known world. Now it's ruled by radical religious factions, and it's a smoking hellhole of violence and dictatorship. Yeah, I'd say religious leadership has done WONDERS for that region.

    ReplyDelete
  10. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Dear Lord, I've heard some of the worst strawman arguments so far.

    "Religion is just some made up set of rules by old men who only wish to control and conform a large amount of ppl. This being said. Only those who are narrow minded and/or easily manipulated believe in such ludicrous as 'god' or a higher power."

    We're going with conspiracy theory here? Really? Despite the fact that the early Christian church was persecuted beyond belief, it's just to control people? Sure, there are religious organizations that exist for profit, but they're fairly easy to distinguish for what they are. I'll name Scientology and Mormonism for my first examples.

    Next we have the "religion is used to justify wars". Well, sadly to say it has been used to justify wars. This statement neglects to mention whether or not it has been used to justify these wars consistent with the referenced religion. People will go to war with each other, and they will use any excuse they find convenient.

    This is all leaving aside the unfounded assumption that Big Bang and Evolution theories remove a Creator. Instead it just points to the fact that no Divine intervention was needed to produce life after the start of the universe. Whether there was Divine intervention to start the universe and whether there has been divine intervention since then are much more pressing questions.

    So, now that we're on the same page can we have some productive debate?

    ReplyDelete
  12. This quote is a classic violation of the principle that every science class we've ever taken has hammered into us at length: correlation does not equal causality.

    I don't have information to support or refute the statement that polls have shown that people with higher IQs tend not to believe in God, but it can certainly be equivalently rephrased to say t hat people who do not believe in God tend to have higher IQs. Sounds ridiculous and unrelated, doesn't it? It could also of course be a third variable such as overall population trends, something about some people's childhoods being conducive to both of these outcomes, difficulty in resolving supposedly conflicting issues in religion and science leading fewer fundamentally religious people to seek higher education, the fact that IQ is simply a test score, etc. This is only a list off the top of my head, not anything I'm necessarily advocating.

    The quote is not actually saying anything that has any real basis, so there is nothing to support or refute other than one person's poorly thought out opinion.

    What I'm saying is that while I support the idea of creating a forum for philosophical discussion here at Tech, the seed question should be something more legitimate if it is to foster real discourse. It also might be a good idea to begin with something less controversial and potentially volatile than religion.

    ReplyDelete
  13. A Christian at NMT writes:
    Is it foolish to be religious? To believe in God? To be a Christian?

    Consider what the Bible says ...
    1) about those who make idols
    "Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." (Romans 1:22-23)
    See also Isaiah 44:9-20

    2) about God and the "wise" and "foolish"
    "For consider your calling, brethren [Christians], that there were not many wise according to the flesh ... but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise ... so that no man may boast before God." (1 Corinthians 1:26-29)

    3) about Christianity and those who hear the gospel message
    "... but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness ..." (1 Corinthians 1:23)
    "Now when they [the men of Athens] heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer ..." (Acts 17:32)

    So, I'm not surprised when someone like Mr. Lynn places intelligence at odds with religion. Many of the world's religions are indeed foolishness (point 1), and Christianity claims that God often chooses "foolish" men to preach a message that many people would regard as foolish (points 2 & 3).

    By the way, if anyone is put-off by my quoting the Bible, consider this:
    Why would I use my own words if the Bible actually is the word of God?

    I pray that you will read the Bible, for through it I have been reconciled with God and have a hope which will not disappoint.

    ReplyDelete
  14. I feel like commenting on everything for myself, so please bear with me.

    First:
    "Religion is just some made up set of rules by old men who only wish to control and conform a large amount of ppl. This being said. Only those who are narrow minded and/or easily manipulated believe in such ludicrous as "god" or a higher power."

    Where are your supporting facts for such a general statement? Is President Obama narrow minded and easily manipulated? Your statement would put him in that category.
    What old men? Why religion? Other methods have been used to control people. Communism is a much faster means of control than a religion in which you have to convince others to follow of their own will. Religion might be longer lasting, but it would be slow in return. If I were an old man wishing to control people I would want more immediate results.
    How is rejecting the possibility of God more open minded than believing in God?

    Second:
    Genie, you wrote "Scientifically, evolution is the most grounded theory, so it makes sense to teach it."
    What scientific grounding are you talking about? I personally would like to have a discussion on evidences for evolution as I am poorly schooled in that area. Maybe in a different blog?

    Third:
    To the Anonymous after Genie and Anon, you wrote "These individuals understand things by observing the world around them, gathering (physical) evidence, and drawing conclusions based upon that evidence. Unfortunately, there is no physical evidence that points directly to God’s existence, or that proves objectively that God created the universe and mankind in His image; God’s existence must be accepted on faith or not at all."
    You seem to view those of scientific thought as completely without bias. While would be the perfection of scientific thought, all people have some bias based on personal beliefs and experiences. To say some one is unbiased is to lie. Biases must be recognized, and there influence on works must also be recognized so the true conclusions can be made apparent.

    "By contrast, a great many theories that contradict biblical testament, such as the Big Bang theory and the theory of Evolution, whether technically correct or not, are based upon physical evidence that can be studied objectively."
    Dipping into the Evolution argument, there are evidences for God or for a creator. Some scientist do not see the evidence this way. Depending on the bias you have you discard evidences for the other side of the argument or make excuses for your own argument.
    I again ask what evidence for evolution? Can it be viewed from a different perspective with the same outcome? What excuses could I make for it? Can we have a thread for Evolution debate?

    "It must also be noted that religious thought has been unfortunately associated with anti-intellectualism and even barbarism."
    Really? Must it? Then we also must note that anti-religious thought has been unfortunately associated with anti-intellectualism and even barbarism. What is the oppression of scientist that believe in God but anti-intellectualism? Why will creationism or intelligent design mot be taught in schools. There is no absolute proof for it, but neither is there absolute proof for evolution. Would not presenting both theories and making students THINK be intellectually beneficial? Hitler and his Holocaust of the Jews. That is extreme barbarism.

    "A few notable examples include the imprisonment of Galileo for his support of the geocentric theory (actually, it was because he tried to interpret scripture on his own, but that's pretty bad too), the Crusades, where millions died for the purpose of ‘Recapturing the Holy Land’, the Spanish Inquisition, and the witch hunts of colonial America."
    What of Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle (who study science to bring glory to God), Blaise Pascal, Johannes Kepler, or Roger Bacon? All men of faith, some driven by their belief in God to do the works they are famous for.
    Has religion been used to oppress? Absolutely. But has it been the stipulation of the religion or just people who believe it? Did religion say the earth was the center of the solar system, or did people not want to accept otherwise? People have used religion as an excuse to do various things, some atrocious. But peoples miss use of evolution does not prove it wrong.

    ReplyDelete
  15. And then I forget to comment on the original subject of this blog which others have correctly refuted. Quoting Isis, "Correlation does not equal causality." As Dr. Samuels taught in PSY 121, I.Q. is not a good test of intellegence.

    ReplyDelete
  16. The argument that if people do believe in a god makes them less intelligent is a very vague statement as stated previously stated. There are many different cultures that believe in different 'gods'. It could be argued that the followers of the one true God, i.e. Jews and Christians are more intelligent. Here are some REAL numbers to back that up.

    The Jews, just the Jews, who make up 0.02% of the world population have acquired 178 Nobel Prizes over the years (That's 23% of the awards worldwide!), this includes brilliant minds such as Albert Einstein who is commonly referred to as the smartest man to ever live.

    Muslims, who now populate a little over 20% of the worlds population (that is 1.4 BILLION Muslims who believe in a god) have won, total, 9 Noble Prizes.

    Muslims to Jews the ratio is 117:1
    That means by now, if the Muslims were as blessed as the Jews they WOULD have won 24,920 Nobel Prizes (proportionally)

    This leads me to conclude that by believing in the true God of the universe He pours out blessings of not only happiness but intelligence as well.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Alpha1, you wrote:
    What scientific grounding are you talking about? I personally would like to have a discussion on evidences for evolution as I am poorly schooled in that area. Maybe in a different blog?

    Lets just say that evolution is one of the best-supported theories* in all of science. It has been around for over 150 years, and in all that time evidence against it has never been found, while evidence for it has continually piled up. Occasionally, some data comes in that necessitates a reevaluation of the details, but the underlying concept has never been refuted by anything ever found.

    *Preemptively, I would like to present this link to point out the flaws of the "only a theory" objection that pops up so often in these debates using an analogy that should be quite obvious.

    ReplyDelete
  18. @ Scott

    In the words of Achmed the dead terrorist (from Jeff Dunham), "You racist bastard." Either you are as stupid as you seem or you are writing some extreme satire. I'm hoping it's the latter but assuming it's the former, as you give no hint of a satirical comment. So let's start from the top:

    "Jews and Christians are more intelligent."

    You only mention Jews getting Nobel prizes, not Christians. The last time I checked, the Christians are all whining left and right that their intelligent design theories are not taught in schools.

    "The Jews, just the Jews, who make up 0.02% of the world population "

    Israel makes up 0.02% of the worlds population, not the Jews. Jews live all around the world, not just in Israel.

    "have acquired 178 Nobel Prizes over the years"

    The Nobel Prize is an arbitrary award. The judges could be biased, and just because a group of people decides to give a certain person an award doesn't mean that certain person is more intelligent than other scientists.

    "That means by now, if the Muslims were as blessed as the Jews they WOULD have won 24,920 Nobel Prizes (proportionally)"

    What about during the Muslim rule in Spain from ~700AD to ~1500AD? For about 800 years the Muslims significantly advanced science and knowledge. In addition, almost all of Christian Europe was illiterate, not even the kings could read, much less write. If there had been Nobel prizes in that time, the Muslims would have likely won a great deal of them. And they had it going for 800 years. The Nobel prize today has only been around since 1901. If the Nobel prize had been given since then, the Muslims would likely have more than the Jews.

    "This leads me to conclude that by believing in the true God of the universe He pours out blessings of not only happiness but intelligence as well."

    Which God? The Jews and Christians believe in a different one. One group is still waiting for Jesus to come, and the other believes that he already has. You can't lump the two groups together.

    ReplyDelete
  19. d42k kn16h7 is correct in his last post. The Muslims controlled almost all of civilized world at the time. This was really back when Europe was unfortunately like the Africa, or continent we don't care about right now sort of deal.

    This blog isn't really going anywhere right now.

    ReplyDelete

Email Us!

If you are not comfortable leaving your thoughts for everyone to see, yet you still would like to tell someone your thoughts, we would love to hear what you think. Feel free to email us at: givemeananswernmt@gmail.com

Suggestions on how to make our blog better are also quite welcome. Please, do not hesitate to email us at the above address with your ideas.